Naming Joy Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 0:14

You've ever been grateful and stressed at the same time, overwhelmed and excited in the same week. That's real life and that's real leadership. So here's where we're going today leading yourself when you're holding more than one emotion at once. Dude, that's so good.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

That's it's brilliant, man. It's brilliant. We we um you you kind of challenged me with this thought. I don't know. We were in the process of recording or doing something, talking about life or leadership, and we were catching up and we had some real moments. And one of the ones you were like, hey, I'm experiencing joy anxiety. Like we were we're reconnecting, you know, been friends for almost like a decade. Right. And now kind of in this space of like, now we're closer to each other. I moved back from Virginia. Now we're here in the same space in the same state, and it's like, right, I don't, I don't want this to go away. Like, how do but how often this shows up in our working life, right? Business life. So just talk about that, man. Like you, you first off, tell me a little bit more about this whole joy anxiety, but I'd love to hear where that came from. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah. That's so real. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited that we get to do this together. And then at the same time, I went, well, what if it ends? And then check this out. What if James doesn't want to do it anymore? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing how we can experience the joy of whatever it is in the moment. And then at the same time, almost in the same swoop, the anxiety comes that we're gonna lose that thing. And I feel like the challenge is um, is that gonna steal the joy? Is it gonna be a part of it? I mean, where do we where do we go with that? Yeah. Actually, I heard that phrase from someone else, and I had the same exact experience that you did. I said, can you say that again? Yeah, yeah. Joy, anxiety? You just put a name to an experience I've been having like forever. Um, and and I don't think we're alone, man. Yeah, I definitely I think leadership is a lot of joy anxiety because if you've been leading for any given amount of time, here's what you know you know that with the good things come the bad things that it can change so quickly. Um, and so we got to be steadfast in that space. But that's real, man. When I when I think about joy anxiety, here's here's like I'm gonna I'm we're gonna go deep quick. Yeah, let's go, let's go. So I was thinking about this, and recently, uh great joy, my son was born. So excited. Yep. I mean, I can't, I mean, so excited.

When Joy Triggers Fear Of Loss

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I if you're a father, you know that having a child is one of the most amazing things in the world. And if you're not, you can you can totally see it, right? Yeah, I'm so excited to be a dad, and all of a sudden I'm so anxious that I'm gonna mess it up. Yeah, and here's how this manifested for me because I'm I didn't want to go there. I didn't want anything to touch my joy. I didn't I didn't want to experience two emotions at once. I just wanted to have the joy and I didn't want to uncover what else was going on. Yeah, and so I actually, for the first time in my life, got eczema. Wow. It started, it started literally spilling out of my body where I started like, what is going on? My beard is itchy, crazy. The backs of my kneecaps, like behind my ears. Backs of my kneecaps. It's so random, right? I know. Like, look, if you've had eczema before, it comes in the weirdest spots, weirdest places. Oh, yeah. And it took me a little bit. I thought I was, oh, I must have eaten something. Oh, maybe I changed something in my environment. Maybe I'm just getting sick. And then somebody asks me, like, are you stressed out? Now you know me for a little while, bro. Uh, the answer is always no. Of course not. I'm fine. We're good. We're good, right? I'm fine. Sure, things might be intense, but I'm not gonna die. Ultimately, I will get through this. Yeah, um, but I've been trying to work on that and say, okay, hold on a sec. So my first answer is yes, I'm fine. And yeah, I'm feeling a little worried. I'm not gonna be able to provide for my son. To get really real, some of the loss I've experienced in my life, losing a sister, losing a brother, I'm worried he's not gonna stay alive. Yeah, and I thought I was over those things. And then a new, I don't want to say challenge, but a new opportunity comes up and it surfaces. Oh, that's still there. And so here I am, like, oh congratulations, yo, beautiful boy, uh, amazing. How are you? And Noah, Noah's doing great, your wife. And then I'm over here having eczema, itching.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Dude, yeah, that's wild. You know what's crazy? That I heard, I think his name is Kurt Thompson um said something along the lines of anxiety is anticipated abandonment. Um, right? Anxiety is anticipated abandonment. Okay. I I kind of want to peel back a little bit, man. Just not we ain't in therapy, neither of us are therapists or coach, but we are coaches. And I and I think about this to you've got you you're itching behind your kneecaps. Yeah. And this itch was tied to something deeper and greater, and just kind of thinking through what were you expecting to be abandoned?

Fatherhood, Stress, And Somatic Signals

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Like who are you expecting was going to abandon you? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah. That resonates in the space of um over the course of my life, people have left abruptly. And that's not even just with my family, right? That happens in uh in my leadership at work. Like, oh wow, I thought you were gonna be around for a while and now you're gone. And so I think immediately it was like, well, what if not that my son would like abandon me intentionally, but what if he left? Yeah. But here's the one that got me that I didn't expect is I started to be afraid that Noelle might leave. Here's why. Because we're married, no kids, and I still had this little self-reliance thing. Yeah, where if she left, I'd be devastated. I love my wife, I mean, so much. Sure. But I would be okay. I got it. Yep. You know what I can't do without her? I can't raise my son in the way that I want. I can't leave my family in the way that I want. I can't provide health and wholeness for him in the way that I would want because what I want is for us to do that together. And there are things that she can do, like breastfeeding, yeah, that that's not in the cards for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not even gonna try to do it. Yeah, and so I started to realize, like, oh wow. Um, and so I think what it taught me in that space is the joy and anxiety were like right there together, yeah, is that I don't have another option other than to not be self-reliant. That's just a mirage, that's just an illusion, right? It's like, no, no, no, I have to rely on my wife in the same way that I have to rely on my team. And whether that's a direct report or a supervisor, I mean, there is no real self-reliance, at least not if we want to build something bigger than ourselves. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

That's you know, what I hear you saying is a couple things. Uh, one is for leaders that are navigating this in real time, it's that two things, two truths can be true at the exact same time. Right? Like I can be super excited about this opportunity and also terrified. Um, I can be in the process of birthing something, right? So maybe you're not a father, maybe you're a mother, maybe you're, maybe you're maybe you're not a parent at all. Maybe it's like, hey, I've built this business or I've built this situation, I'm leading this team, we've started this initiative, whatever it is. Right. And the reality is I'm birthing something, I'm building something, but I'm also anxious that it could lose at any time. Like it's it's the sense that is this just sand? Is it is it gonna come like is this is this sinking sand? Like, I I that's real. Two truths can be true at the same time. I think it's also good on you that you are acknowledging the fact that it's true. Because what I also hear in the story is that often as leaders, we will avoid what's really happening, right? We avoid reality, and fantasy is really easy to jump into, is really easy to you know ascribe to and say, hey, I'm gonna stick my uh thing in the ground here, but to acknowledge the fact that no, I'm I'm not a superhero, right? You know what I'm saying? Like and you and I talk often, but the reality is how do we lead without losing ourselves? And I think that's one of the the challenges with leaders is that we often was it uh Jim Collins, right? Good to great, yeah, brutal honesty, right? We've gotta we've gotta hack like face the facts. Yeah, and that makes sense in a business context, right? But I think leaders don't often face the facts of their internal context as well. And I think you're saying, hey, I actually am taking a look at my internal context because I know that in doing this internal investigation, it also is going to influence my leadership. Right because you said something that I thought was really interesting. Said, man, um, in other words, it's a risk. Leading is a risk. Right. Like there's gonna be some people who leave. Right. There's gonna be some things that change. Yeah, but I've got to actually have another word I heard you were saying is interdependence. Yep. It's that right if I'm stepping into a new initiative, if I'm birthing something, right, if I'm building something, yeah, there's this joy anxiety, but what actually soothes some of the anxiety is not the abandonment, but it's the assistance of something else. Right. It's actually, hey, I got my wife here. I I can't rescue, she can. Right, right. But there's certain things that you do that actually take some weight off of her too. And I just think about even in our relationship, first of all, I ain't going nowhere. Like we're we're we're good. Like, you know, we we if we've got to make it work virtually, we're gonna make it work.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

But the idea is you and I have this complementary type of relationship where it's like you're good at some things that I'm not good at. I'm good at some things that you you still are growing at. And I think I think that's the beauty of it. Like we, but it's also to say that there's a risk. Like there could be some time where we don't talk to each other for a while.

Anticipated Abandonment And Leadership

SPEAKER_02 10:45

And I think I I mean, I could go into a whole nother direction, but I want I wanted to kind of peel back some of the layers. What as you were kind of listening to your own self-talk, sure. Like what was what was jumping out for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, I'm thinking, yeah, it's worth the risk, right? And there is no way around it, right? Just because just because we don't want to admit it's true, that doesn't make it false, right? And so here we are almost tying our hand behind our back because we are experiencing this thing. Yeah, and sure it'd be easier to compartmentalize and not name it. Yeah, but here's what we know whether it's anxiety, whether it's fear, that stuff leaks. Right? We think, oh, I can bottle it up. You can bottle it up as much as you want. That stuff leaks. But if you keep the cork on it long enough, that stuff explodes. And all of a sudden, you say, What happened? Uh, I know you were talking about uh a panic attack you experienced on your leadership journey. Yeah, man. And all of a sudden you're like, I don't have panic attacks. What's going on? And it's sort of like, hey, let me get your attention. There's some stuff that is unaddressed. And so yeah, I really feel like it is tying our hand behind our back. And I think it takes courage, man.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah, that's real.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Like I think it takes real courage. As you were talking about experiencing these emotions, I think it takes courage to name that we have them. And I think even just like our aim, our target is we want to be like full spectrum human beings, the whole range of human emotion. Yeah, yeah. That even that is critical to leadership, right? I think it's Craig Rochelle will say, um, leaders will be inspired by your strengths, but they will connect with your weaknesses. Absolutely. So I don't have any weaknesses. Oh, I don't even feel those emotions. Like, oh, you're just a robot. And I think today we have this modern like uh obsession with stoicism. Yes. And and it's a pendulum, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a pendulum because we went into like uh, you know, even like people's view of like a higher power was moralistic therapeutic deism, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if there is a god, that god is just gonna uh give me therapy and make me feel good. That's it, right? And then we went deep into therapy, and hey, uh, big fan of therapy. Yep, yep. That's awesome. Yep, but it was all about articulating your emotions, and we sort of pendulum swung, and of course, as it does, swung too far. Yeah, now I feel like we're on the backswing. Yeah, and of course, we're coming too far. And so now it's like, did you know about stoicism? This is you don't have to feel anything, right? And I'm like, wait a second, tell me how you're gonna lead real people with real emotions and real hearts if the only emotion you can name is joy, uh, happiness, uh, excitement, enthusiasm, maybe some anger. Because that's kind of that's kind of tough. That's okay. Yeah. But sadness, yeah, anxiety, fear. So that's why I'm like, oh, the pendulum is swifting. And I think, I think it's doing a disservice to our leaders, but also, I mean, this is your area of expertise.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

People are burning out. Yeah, right? Yeah. Burning out. And I think it's I think that that's really powerful, that we're burning out because we are functioning in a way that we weren't created or designed to function in, right? Right. That that I am a human, I'm a human being. Like at some level, and I agree with you, man. I think that sometimes that that pendulum, I it, I often would cringe because I'm listening to the pendulum. And I'm this is no offense to anyone, but it is the pendulum at one point of the, oh, everything is just feel everything. And I'm like, right, listen, like we just need to get the job done. Yeah, right. Now, now, but there was an aspect of like, no, there were some feelings that I I was avoiding. Right. Um, and I needed to address that. And I think that what you're hitting at with this joy anxiety is such a real, it's a real, it's a real complexity in leadership. And I I love leadership just because there's a paradox always. There's always this paradox. There's there's this tension, right? There's the tension. And I love it's that you pay attention to the tension because it's in that tension that we actually find just

From Self-Reliance To Interdependence

SPEAKER_02 14:45

some some real beauty, some real life. It's actually in the tension, right? Of us walking, like the tension of in order for me to move my legs, and I'm no health professional, but in order for me to move my legs and my arms and to have a stride at the same time, right? There's tension going on in my body, right? Right. So tension actually brings life. I mean, I I we can go a little deep. I want to make sure we keep it PG, but the reality is life comes from friction.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Okay, hey.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

And we'll stay there. But the reality is life comes from friction. Right. And we have to be able to, as leaders, understand the complexity of leading people, right? Um, of being my own person, but also that there's friction. And if I can figure out how to navigate the friction, I can actually find something that's really beautiful. Something that you often are working on. You spend a lot of time figuring out people puzzles. Sure. Right. And what I love about the work you do is you're always looking at team dynamics to say how could these people who would normally bring so much friction and so much frustration, how do we get them to work together to build something beautiful?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah, let me let me touch on that because you know what? It isn't, you're right, tensions are meant to be managed, not meant to be resolved. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because if you resolve the tension of I'm a, I'm a I'm a father and a CEO, I'm a father and I'm a director, I'm a father and I work at this place. The way that you resolve that tension of where you're gonna spend your time is either quit your job or quit your family. Yeah. And if you quit your job, you're ain't gonna be providing much for your family, right? So that's right. That idea, yeah. But thinking about um attentions are meant to be managed and not resolved. I feel like um that is the space of maturity we want to bring people to. In team dynamics, we don't want no friction.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

There's this, there's this um, there's this continuum. Uh Patrick Lancioni, the table group, talk about this uh conflict continuum. Where on one side you have artificial harmony.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

No friction. Yeah, no tension. Well, no spoken tension. Yep. Right. Silence is violence. Silence is violence, it's more so spoken in the hallway, right? And like in a couple people's ears, right? So artificial harmony. On the other side of the conflict continuum, you have hell. Everybody is mean, yelling at each other, and it's enough friction to break people, right? Like you want people to bend, not break.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Okay, so where are we supposed to be?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

And he would say, and I would agree that we want to be one step past the middle or one step before the middle. So if we got artificial harmony, we got hell on this side. We want the level of conflict to be right here. Because what's gonna happen is if there's a good conflict and there's friction and there's tension, we're gonna take it a step too far sometimes. Yeah, we're gonna step over the line, yeah, and that's one step towards hell. So that's what makes it scary. But then you get to say, hey, please forgive me. Yeah, I was excited about this thing and I took it too serious, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. So the reason we need that is because if you have a team that isn't experiencing any conflict, well, then there's no commitment. No one's really voicing their opinions, no one's really buying in, you're not coming up with the best decisions, you're definitely not earning trust by saying, Oh wow, like James and I had this engagement. It's more just kind of we stay in our lane, you become more like a golf team than you do a basketball team. Right? Yeah, and so you need that, you need to experience those things both at once. It's like I can really love you and appreciate you and think you're a great leader, and I can disagree with you.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, and wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I mean, talk about leading to the next level, otherwise we're stuck, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:14

And you as a leader have to be comfortable with the idea of I'm I live in the space of and, right? There's there's yes, I am a great leader, and I still have blind spots. Yes, yes, I I I'm great at this, and I'm not that great at this, right? Right. And I think it's it's really you you hit something that really uh got me is that if if we don't address that tension, if we don't really pay attention to it, if we're trying to avoid it, yes, right, the artificial harmony, we'll often drive others right into spaces that are unhealthy. We'll drive those people to essentially you you trying because what we're trying to do is trying to control. I'm trying to control the outcome. Right. And in trying to control the outcome, I'm driving people away, essentially. So if anxiety is anticipated abandonment and I'm trying to avoid the abandonment,

Two Truths Leaders Must Hold

SPEAKER_02 20:09

now I'm trying to fabricate and put together this team that's not really a team at all. Right. Or I'm trying to put together a life that's not really a life at all. I'm forcing things to be in, because I think that's a different man, right? You can have tension, but when we're trying to force something, that that's that's not the friction we're talking about. That's a that's uh, I don't even know how to describe that. That is uh it's just misalignment, right? It's one of those things where it's like, no, you you need to pay attention. So you you hit on it. It's like we need to take a step back and not be so hard pressed to get to a result that we miss the fact that hey, I'm probably not. Driving this the way it should be, or maybe I don't need to drive at all. Like you fucking saying, like, there's leaders, I'm hitting on something where I remember experiencing this where I say it this way. So I it's something called forced empathy. So I show up, I'm trying to lead a meeting. Um, I've got this super exciting, like I just love doing this, right? And I want people to experience the same thing that I'm experiencing, but I'm also carrying this joy anxiety, like, oh my gosh, I don't know if it's gonna work. Right. I show up to the meeting and I say to this person or I say to the staff that I'm leading at the time and said, Man, don't we all feel this? Like, isn't everybody feeling this like this? Right. And someone that I didn't expect her to say it, she said, um, no, yeah, that's just you. Right. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. So what I had done is I had projected my emotion onto others, right? Right. And I called it empathy. And it's like, no, that was forced empathy. I didn't pay attention to the emotions that were happening in me. Right. So, like you said, the anxiety started to bubble up because now I'm trying to force emotions on them or empathy on them. And now I'm in a spot where I'm super vulnerable because, like, oh, they're not buying this. Right. They're not getting this at all. This is this is, dude, it's so, anyways, I've got so many stories that I thought about. This when I'm feeling those two tension moments, if I'm not paying attention to the tension, I lose it. Right. There's something else I want you to hit on before we get out of here, though. The idea of how do you navigate some of that? Right. You know, if you're spear you're experiencing joy, anxiety, how do you get to joy? Because that's what we want to experience. Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

No, totally. Yeah, I was thinking about this kind of image of when these emotions live in tension, even when we live in tension with one another, these roles that we play, is that the only way you can live in tension with something is if those things are connected. Right. Otherwise, they're just separate, there's no tension. And so to kind of reframe it and not see it as, oh, this is bad, that I have joy and anxiety, that I'm I'm angry and excited. But the idea, like, no, actually, that means you're you're in a good space, you're in the right space. So I think even just reframing the whole thing, like there's not something wrong with you if you're leading and that's what you're experiencing, if that's what you're it's coming out in your meeting, if that's what the relationship with whatever your partner is happening. So reframing it, but then also and you hit on this, naming it. Reframe name. Because at the end of the day, like it leaks, it will leak, or it will explode, or we will implode. Yeah, yeah. And so the idea to name it, and I feel like in that space, um, what are those? What are those uh you when you work with an organization, you cultivate those communities where say yeah, what do you call that? For me, it's like it's belonging circles, belonging circles. Right? Or learning labs, these two things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so these spaces where we have people that we can trust, maybe there's a facilitator, maybe not, like whatever. Um, and we're able to actually name name things. And you you gave me this phrase I thought was awesome. The idea that there is we want to create a brave space, yeah. A space where people can say things, and that takes time. And I would say the any leader listening right now, and we know this, that the only way that we can do that is by modeling it ourselves. That's it, man. So we gotta reframe it, we gotta name it, and then we absolutely have to model it once we invite people into it.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Um, I love it, man.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah, I almost feel like I uh just capturing it, your three points. It's right, it's uh reframe, name, and the last part was model it, right? And I would say in built into that is find a space you can do it safely. Right. Right, like that, that the leader. For the leader, it's it's it's gonna benefit your team for you to have a space that you can actually reframe. Because you and I know, like you can't

Burnout, Stoicism, And Real Emotion

SPEAKER_02 24:59

use your team as your therapy session. No, no, you you can't use your platform as your therapy session, like you've gotta figure out how to do that in private so that you can now show up better in public. Public. So, yeah, reframe, uh, name it, model it in a safe space. That's good. So, so JC, we were trying to think through last week or the last episode. Right. What's the closing thought?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Closing thoughts. Here's mine. Uh you can feel more than one thing at the same time and still lead well and still lead with intention. What about you? What do you got?

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Man, I I would say I've got so much in my head right now. Um, but I would say you need people to actually walk the leadership journey effectively.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah. We can't do it alone. We can't do it alone. All right. Here's a challenge. Here's how you can cross the threshold this week. Might seem simple, might even seem silly. Do this. Name the two emotions you're experiencing this week. That's it. That's the beginning. Like, oh, I don't need to do that. Watch to see what happens. You will cross the threshold from immaturity to maturity to be only able to lead well and to lead without losing yourself. That's good, man. Yeah, it's good, bro.