A Restless Morning After Feedback

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, where are we going today? Not where we thought we were going. Not where we thought we got we might be might be doing two today. So this we're gonna turn that over. Let's get it. So you came in, you told me uh you've been up since 3 30. 3 30 a.m. 3 30, yep. And uh wrestling.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah, wrestling.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Tell me big time wrestling.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

What got you up? So so I had an event, and we had this event, this workshop. And it was this workshop uh some months ago, and it was a great workshop. I thought it was uh a great event. You and I were a part of it, you know, it's really this marriage event, things that I really, really love to do. I'm serving with my wife, I'm serving in community that I love. I, you know, it was a great day. I preached, I did some training, we did this workshop, and it was good. At the end of this event, I made this pitch. And it was uh looking back, and even when I was doing it, it felt like a sales pitch. So what was crazy about the sales pitch, here's what's crazy. What was crazy about the sales pitch is I made the pitch, room full of 50 people, no one responded.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

50 couples. 50 couples, let's let's let's make it clear.

The Sales Pitch That Missed

Assigning Motives And Self-Doubt

SPEAKER_00 1:29

50 couples, no one responded. So months later, this like yesterday, I'm just kind of going through my emails. You and I are going back and forth with things, and so I'm looking through emails trying to find something, yeah, and I see feedback from this event. And the feedback I got from this event was all like, oh man, this was great, this was great, man. I love when you and Ashley were doing that. I'm like, you would think I would be really encouraged and inspired. Like, this was awesome. There were two pieces of feedback, and they weren't even negative. The feedback was, man, that sales pitch fell off. Yeah. So for me, yeah, immediately I'm reading the feedback and I'm assigning motive to actions. I'm I'm already saying, oh, well, you know what? That's because they didn't do this, they don't know this, and man, of course, like I'm I'm the black guy coming into this community and I've studied this and I studied that. Like if it was somebody else, y'all would have listened to it, right? Like I'm going through, dude, I'm going through all of these tapes. Yeah, and I'm going through the tapes of the insecurity of I can't believe they did this, I can't believe they did that. Right. And then what was crazy is I finally got to a moment where um I'm sitting and I'm like, what is this about? Um, because for me, I'm up and I'm wrestling and I'm restless, and I'm like, first of all, this was feedback that was from months ago. Right. The event already happened, right? The event already happened, and the fear that I had so surrounding that, oh, I made this pitch and they wouldn't, they wouldn't love me, they don't respect me. Like, no, that's not true. I'm still here. You're still here. Yeah, and then the the and you and I are still building. Yep. What's crazy is I'm sitting there, and for me, my faith is so important. Um, and I feel I've learned that these moments are moments where God is trying to get my attention. And so I sit down, I get out of bed, I go to my desk, and I'm wrestling with these thoughts. I've you know already judged people and judge this and judge that. And then when I really got to where I was getting, I was clear that not only I judge them, but then I started looking at myself. Oh man, you must be, you're just a terrible leader. You're just a terrible communicator. Like, why are you even in this? Like, you don't know how to sell. You don't know how to sell. Like you're you're not a good businessman. Like, why would you even try to do this? Wow. Right? And so then I peeled back some layers and I felt like God was kind of getting my attention that way. And usually um, the way I feel like this, I'm I'm moved spiritually, yeah, is I'll hear things repeatedly. Like, yeah, I'll hear it in a book, I'll see it in a book, I'll see it in a uh a message I'm listening to or a keynote, or whatever. It's like oh, my wife says something, I'm like, what in the so I heard you preaching a sermon this past weekend, and the sermon title was Wait. Yeah, waiting well, waiting well. And so I'm sitting in this, and as I started peeling back layers, it's like, what's really going on here? Yeah, and what was really going on is two a couple of things. Number one is I knew that I shouldn't have made that sales pitch. Here's why. Not that it was bad, in a different environment and a different audience, right? It probably would have gone well. But the reason I did it was why I shouldn't have done it. Yeah, I was making a decision out of fear versus alignment, right? Right? So scarcity, scarcity versus abundance, right? And so for me, I was listening to some advice from a credible source and good advice in another circumstance. But in this setting, it was like I needed to figure out a little bit more. I needed to figure out what they needed more as opposed to just jumping into this, and so I put on someone else's uh system without even looking at hey, what's really core for me? That was number one, dude.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Just a just a thought. Yeah, I love the way that you dress. Yeah, yeah. For real, I do. I got respect on that. But if I were to put that jacket on right now, I would look silly. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

And so the the jacket itself wasn't bad. The jacket itself is not bad, but it's for someone else. Yeah, and so I was putting on someone else's jacket, and then the other piece that got me was I've been on a journey, and when I started digging, I've been on a journey, and I felt what feels like calling, something that is out of body, right, uh out of this world. Like I can't quite explain it. It's it's really deep, and it's something that I knew that I was supposed to be stepping into something different. It's some would call it it's a dream. Like, so I'm walking in to what I've been dreaming about, and what I'm feeling at the end of it is that I'm scared, right? So, so fear is showing up and it's showing up in a bunch of different ways. Right. And it showed up in that space, but it's also showing up in this space where I'm also getting so that feedback hit me so hard because I'm man, I had a couple of calls that were like, is it gonna go through?

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Right, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Like, and I had I had a couple of calls or I had a couple of meetings that didn't go the way I expected it. And so fear saying, Oh, you here you go again.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

You know? So I'm yeah, I got so much I want to unpack here. The first question I heard you like uh that I think our listeners need to hear is what's underneath this? Right. Here's the reaction. I have the pretty much the same reaction as you. I feel like most people probably have a typical one. We get some negative feedback, and the first thing is like, Well, they're dumb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not really, like what we know is not like you know, it's nothing about the person, it's like, well, they must be wrong because, and so it's a defensive posture, it's a reactive posture, but then we come into or maybe what's wrong with me, or maybe I'm not cut out for this, or maybe I'm not. And you mentioned calling.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

That's the series of events, that's it, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:23

That's and then but can we get to the third space? We always want to be at the third space, right? We have these two extremes. How do we navigate the middle? I think that's where we cross the threshold is through that third space, even to see the kind of door frame if you want. That's the threshold, yeah. Yeah, so the um the third space is kind of where you are now, which is or where you got to after 3 30 a.m. wake up, right? Which is like, what can I learn from this? What happened? What was underneath that, and moving into that? I do think another like this is so good. That doesn't mean you're not still called to this work.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yes, right.

Faith, Waiting Well, And Calling

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yes, and I think a lot of times we have you know these pictures and we see everyone's highlight reel, right? But we don't see the hard work behind it. Yeah, what we normally don't see is all the failures that came with it, right? And and failures sometimes I'm like, I feel like I don't even fail. I'm like, well, what do you mean you don't fail? I'm like, oh no, no. I swing and miss often. Yeah, yeah. And I learn from my mistakes, but fail, fail to me would be like to stop. But it's true, there's still things that prevent me from, or when I get the feedback, I'm like, oh, I failed. Yeah. And then, but calling isn't this like, oh, I'm called to this, therefore it's gonna be a perfect road. Yeah, even think we're you're talking about your faith, yeah. That's so important to both of us. And you and I really been looking to Moses, and Christian or not, most people know that story, right? Jewish or not, people know most of the story. He sees a burning bush. Well, God is like, hey, I I want you to set my people free, go and lead them. And he comes back and he's got all this resistance, and it's not like he was like, Great. Yeah. I mean, he had doubts himself, but he went back and it did not go well.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

And he had from the people he was trying to set free. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Right? So, but imagine if he was like, Oh, I must have dreamt up that burning bush, yeah, or whatever it was, right? Um, so I just think that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

That's good, man.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Here's what here's what I want to hear from you is okay, so you have this reaction, you have this experience, and we do the oh, I'm defensive, and then I'm implosive, and I'm like, what's wrong with me? But then you told me you you did something. Where did you go with that to get into the third space?

Fear Versus Alignment In Decisions

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah, so I had to I had to first get out of my environment, right? Um so that was I was this started while I was in bed and I'm restless in bed. And the knee-jerk response is I was telling, I was walking my those myself through this is kind of crazy. My knee-jerk response is I'm gonna fight through this. I'm like, I'm a man. Like, are you kidding me? Like, I I'm gonna like you're not gonna defeat me, I'm gonna defeat you. So I'm gonna stay in this bed as long as I can and fall asleep. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm fighting the fighting, I'm going to sleep. And the pride is too ridiculous, right? I'm I'm literally, I'm I'm gonna go to sleep. And I didn't. And and it was about an hour later where it was like, just get up. So I get up. I had to change my environment. I got out of bed, okay, went on my robe, blah, blah, blah, go downstairs, and there's a spot in our place where there's a little table by the window. Yeah. Um, and that place is such a sacred space for me. And I didn't, I, I, this is the first time I've probably said that um because it is a space that feels like, huh, I can breathe here. Yeah. So I sat down in that space uh and I just begin to uh put on some music for me. That's helpful for me, uh, just to kind of like, let me slow down. I gotta slow down because what's happening is my brain is moving, everything's moving, so I needed to change my environment. Number one, I need to figure out a way to slow down. Yeah, um, and so I'm slowing down. And another way for me is I I just started, I took out my computer and I'm learning this. I I love to journal with a pencil or pen, yeah, but I'm also learning in this season, I'm really enjoying typing uh in journaling because I can refer back to it, I can send it here, I can do this, I can workshop it where I and and I can actually, I mean, that's just uh another conversation, right? But I'm typing it out and I'm just allowing myself to feel it. Yeah, like that's the thing that I'm allowing myself to feel all of it because what I was doing in bed is I'm fighting it, right? But when I'm sitting down in this seat, I'm like, I'm just gonna feel it. I'm I'm yep, okay. And anything that comes up, we just gonna sit here. Um and and again, where the faith component comes up is that I realize that when I'm sitting in this, so there's this popular, again, it's just like everyone would know Moses, a lot of us know uh Psalm 23. Uh it's a very popular scripture. Uh, and it is the Lord is my shepherd. Right. I shall not want. Another translation, the Lord is my shepherd, I have everything I need. And I said that, and so what was really interesting is that I needed, I needed to then get out of my head. So I'm writing, but before I even actually before I started writing, I needed space to get out of my own head for a moment. Um, and what that was was I needed to, we have systems that we operate in. And my normal system is I'm very analytical, and I'll just, I'll just start analyzing everything, but I needed something outside of my system to speak in to my system, right? Like that's so that's where that that word was. It was like, huh. I needed something to come back to me, right? So this the way I envision it is if God is speaking in this this this scripture, that this is now Him interrupting my life so that I can get whatever that is in here. So that was a process. I started with changing my environment. I started with changing the talk that's happening, the self-talk, whatever's going on. Right now I'm also changing my thoughts, and then I'm actually feeling what I'm feeling and processing it in a healthy way. So the process for me is I need to be able to feel it, but I I've done this before where I'll just feed the beast. Oh man, I'm just yada yada, everything is against me. No, my intent is what is the lesson here? Right. And I really I I wrote down a few times, okay, what's the lesson? What did I learn? Oh, okay. So I learned that I am not gonna listen to that friend for this situation because he didn't have the insight of where I was.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Um so, so, all right, so someone is someone gets some feedback, yeah, and immediately it's doing something. Yeah, or maybe it's not even feedback and it's just an event, right? They just failure, no one answered, they they put on an event and no one showed up. Yeah, maybe it's something relationally and they just messed up. And now they're looking in the mirror and they gotta ask some questions. Yeah. And so I'm hearing you say, all right, what practically what can they do? And I think the thing this is gold. Yeah, they can change their environment, they have to. They need to slow down, yeah. Whatever that looks like for them. For you, it looked like music, yeah. It also looked like some process of correct of typing. Um, I I love this so that you can stop fighting it and just feel it. There it is. And sit in it. There it is. But I think the key to the end of this, because in my understanding, in my own experience, uh like my my broken mind can't fix my broken mind, right? And so what you said was you went to the scriptures so that something outside of the system could speak into it.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah.

Changing Environment To Process

SPEAKER_02 16:12

And now here we are. And so that could be a text, yeah, that could be uh It's a podcast. It's it's a podcast, it's a it's another person, which I think would be would be really great. Yep. But I also think the last piece is you have become the sort of person that has now this toolkit, this leadership toolkit, where you have anchoring questions. These qu man, questions change every day. Absolutely. What question are you asking? The first question you're asking is what's wrong with them? The second question you're asking is what's wrong with me? The third question you're asking is, where's the lesson in this? Yeah, what is this doing to me? And in a redemptive way, right? I have everything I need. I mean, that anchor in question, that is, that is so good. There it is. Let's um that's good, man. Let's chop up a little bit because I had this experience with you, and and and we have experiences together, but not so often are they so yeah, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're in our different context. Yeah. And so you had approached me about this this pitch you were gonna make. And and at a high level, I was like, yeah, absolutely. Let's yeah, like we're you're here to help people, let's tell them what you offer. Makes sense, and but it kind of was a little last minute, like, right? It was kind of rushed. There it is. And so there's there's kind of okay, let's pay attention to that. Yeah, attention to the tension. And I felt a little off by it, but I'm also such a champion for you, yeah, and not off by it in like uh questioning your heart, off by it in like, is that the best way to do it? Like, yeah, whatever. Well, yeah, like forget it. Let's just do it and then just do it. Let's see what happens. Yeah, you told me last night we were talking about throw the spaghetti against the wall, let's see what sticks, right? Like, yeah, yeah, you know, people aren't gonna die if that's right. Like, that's right. Oh, that was uncomfortable, like whatever. And so I got to debrief with some of those people afterwards, and I was and and and no one, everyone, of course, everyone was James was great, this is amazing. Oh my gosh, Ashley's so funny, it's so good. Ashley's way better than James.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Hey, no, no, I 100% believe it.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Oh, your wife, man, she's amazing. But so, um, and I'm thinking, so I'm thinking it through too. And I I sent you this feedback a while ago, but obviously, whatever, things are in the queue. And so now we're actually talking about it real time. We haven't talked about it. You haven't talked about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

It's fresh, yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

And so I'm I'm interested, like, okay, what yeah, what what can we learn from that experience? Which you told me, like, all right, that that advice from that person, they didn't understand my context enough. I feel like we just pulled back a little bit, it felt a little rushed. It was rushed, but I really like what you said, and this is what we're wrestling with as we're building this business, is it's like you put on someone else's clothes or you put on It wasn't authentic.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, it wasn't authentic. I think that what's interesting is that as you're highlighting, is you know when something doesn't fit, right? You you you absolutely know when it doesn't fit. I'll force it though. I'll force it though, like I'm gonna go to sleep. Like I'm doing this. Uh and so the reality was it was something the fact that I asked you was an indicator.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yes, an indicator.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

That was like, hey, this wasn't what we talked about. This what we this wasn't what we were dreaming about. This is this is something different. And backstory of that, it also felt force for me in that I was now trying to force this into something. Like the day before. I'm now, oh man, I gotta, I gotta make sure this is all right, this is all right. Meanwhile, that wasn't the focus.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

And so I was anxious stepping into this because it was like, this isn't authentic. I don't need to carry this. And what was crazy, I I heard someone say uh some years ago, I preached a sermon, and uh he's the the person said some more feedback, hey, you know, that was that was a good good sermon. But um I was like, yeah, it was it was I was trying to trying to get and I was trying to, it was really, I felt a little anxious. He said, Yeah, it kind of showed too. So so what we don't realize is that our anxiety in our decision making transfers over to others, like it bleeds onto others, and so it shows. And so for me, I think that those are the things that I knew it wasn't the right move. And it took me now months to actually realize that because I just got back, because I finally read the feedback. That was I could have done it earlier, but I finally got the feedback. But I think going the process up to it is that if something is feeling hard and forced, and and that's different, something being hard or challenging is not an indicator that you shouldn't do it, right? But it is an indicator of wait, why am I doing this again? Pay attention. Pay attention.

Letting Scripture Interrupt The Spiral

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Well, that's that's kind of as you were saying that, that's what I was thinking about. So I'm I'm an Enneagram eight, right? So I'm like, if it's hard, it must be good. The line between tough and stupid, I never found it. Yeah, like my wife is like, What are you doing? What are you just my pinky right now? Oh man from Black Friday for me. It's like it's just it's real, bro. It's real. And but I so I heard a mentor of mine say like if you're doing if you're doing and not to like this I don't even mean to over spiritualize it's more about this intersection of of of the gifts we bring of the desires we have of the people we want to help right this whole what calling is made of this this formation this vocation yeah yeah he said if it's if it feels if it's if it's hard like then pay attention yeah and I do you just named it there's a difference between forcing something and something being hard he said if you're really doing what you should be doing it should feel easy yeah and I'm almost like you know I've done some hard things that have felt easy and not because I'm amazing but because I felt so called to it I was in the right lane it felt authentic to me I I didn't have this anxiety of this this dissonance of like oh I'm trying to be who I think I need to be but really I just want to be yeah this person right yeah so and so I'm like do hard things and so how can we tease out I don't know this is real time what is the what are the indicators that's a great word that you used of this is a forced thing yeah versus this is a hard thing yeah so just we live in a world where doing hard things is like nah don't do hard things yeah I'm like and then we and then there's a again the pendulum where it's like do it because it's hard do it because it's hard you ever hear just total tangents what's my man you ever hear 75 hard yes 75 hard is like you work out every day twice a day twice a day yeah outside yeah I was talking to my buddy one of the guys that we're in that men's group with and he was saying um I failed man I got like 10 days in da da da and and I looked at him 10 days in so you worked out 20 times but I said to him I said I said hey man I didn't you know I don't want to knock it when you first told me yeah but what's up with this 75 hard thing now I get it takes time to build the habit absolutely but I'm like hey what if we give you a sustainable rhythm that and you can execute that and we won't make it easy. Sustainable yeah but you work out five times a week like I just totally so I'm like sometimes we just want to do hard things because they're hard and I've fallen to that too.

Turning Pain Into Lessons

SPEAKER_00 23:34

That doesn't mean they're good so just hard yeah no it's it's it's there's a study I can't remember a homeboy's name but it's he's got like this really cool name it's similar to like Ericsson or something like that but it's like a long I don't know if it's German or whatever but uh years ago it was it's about adequate challenge and uh what I love about this is that we are made for challenge. We're made uh to engage in challenge like our whole physiological like we we need to do challenging things. That's how we grow. We are the only um you know when you think about creation or if you think about just species we're the only ones humans are the only ones that has the ability to change themselves right everyone else everything else is like yep butterfly has to become like a caterpillar has to become a butterfly this you and I I can go from racks to riches because I choose to right right or I can become this or that because I choose to now adequate challenge says that there is these zones of challenges the adequate challenge is right there in the sweet spot but then you have something that is too hard something that is too hard crazy challenge what I would the way I liken it is that too much of a challenge makes you go crazy. Too low of a challenge leader literally leads to boredom and makes you be complacent. And so what we need is something right there in the middle to say huh adequate challenge I feel drawn to this that's interesting I feel called to this so so those indicators are is this making me crazy yeah that might be that might be too hard of a challenge am I am I throwing on shame and guilt? Yeah right because guilt says what I'm doing is bad shame says who I am is bad if I'm throwing on that I may be in the crazy spot I may be trying to catch up with everyone else or do what you know this whatever their culture is whatever whatever the language is for the day I may be trying to do that. But the other one is that complacent that it's too easy of a challenge. Like I watch my daughter you'll see this with your son if they're not being challenged right I don't want to be here and they're not growing they're not growing right so they need that and my my youngest daughter's so good for that when she's not being challenged like okay this is boring. Oh well she built yes she's just built different right this is boring and and so she needs challenge and so adequate challenge is right there in that sweet spot where we need to have some inputs okay some things that are like okay I'm right here outside of because what I what adequate challenge is really is taking a step out of my comfort zone. Right. Does this that's what I would say is this indicator is it taking me outside of my comfort zone now right me going outside of my comfort zone doesn't mean that I'm being inauthentic or forcing it.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Or forcing it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

It does mean that I'm exploring it means that like huh I've got this sense I've got this feeling that maybe I should try it. So if I were to take this example we were using going out of the comfort zone could have been all right rather than rushing and forcing that on you or me or the the rest of the folks the comfort zone could have very well just been hey this was a great event um if you all want to talk later I'd love to connect right sure something hey I you know small what we do is it for a living this is what we do and I love to love to connect with you all as opposed to I had it in the booklet I had it on the screen and I was just like looking back like you know what I'm saying so so I'm just saying that the indicator really is is this an adequate challenge and we use that language crazy we use that language in my house my my my wife my daughters they kind of know like is this adequate?

Authenticity And The Rushed Pitch

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah is this is this causing me to grow okay so here we have so if it's hard because I'm still trying to tease out yeah yeah go for it to kind of land this plane there's forced forced which is in all inauthentic inauthentic makes you go crazy makes you go crazy it's too much it's too much and then indicators are fear anxiety okay shame guilt all of these like things right that's not me right yeah I almost wonder too if there's a where did this come from like why are you doing this? Yes right yes well because this person did it or which doesn't always isn't not always a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

No no it's not but oftentimes it's it's not okay where adequate challenge is going to be pace right there's a the pacing is different. Right the pacing it is it's not rushed not rushed dude it's not rushed it's it's like all right and and and every together community wise it's like this feels good. Right. You know it and because it's not it's not always going to be like everybody agrees. That's not what I was looking for. No totally but there are those times where you get some feedback or you get those things it's like this wasn't authentic. And so the goal is authenticity the goal is how much can I you know right how much of is this really is this me becoming my best version right or is this me putting on somebody else's jacket? Right. Is it making sense?

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Totally yeah okay so and then just to flip it a little bit yeah it's good for our leaders listening there's this you know you always talk about self-leadership team leadership family leadership organizational leadership right so we talk a lot about self-leadership yeah obviously it's transferable um but I'm even thinking for a team a little takeaway to flip it is like okay we want to provide people with adequate challenge. Here's the thing about leadership just life you can't force anyone to do anything right and and we know when people are so resistant and we're trying to force them and we could we could pull we could pull on that thread a lot more. But I do think just a kernel for how do we lead our team is uh you know we want to make sure they have adequate challenge that it's not so low that they're bored or or disengaged yeah disengaged it's not so high that they're like it's a force fit and they're anxious to come to work and they're not it but but that doesn't mean they're not challenged. Yeah yeah yeah all right so I'm thinking for the leader listening right now who is thinking about okay I'm having this experience or I had this experience I got this feedback I I I this event flopped I I failed at this thing I I I messed up in this relationship whatever it is what's give me give me kind of one closing thought on like here's yeah you are not what you do yeah and I would say uh find someone find something that is solid that can speak into the system that is you when you start to go a shot all right challenge try and cross the threshold this week when or whenever you encounter this thing this experience um I would say one thing that you can do is follow these steps change the environment slow down however you need to do that. Remember you want to feel it but you don't want to fight it and then you find something to speak into that system something outside of yourself. That's good man. That's good